fitness of trayvon martin and george zimmerman at the time of the shooting. >> there was nothing that indicated to me that mr. martin wasn't physically capable. you know, when i looked at his size and weight, they were comparable to a -- i saw the photos of him, he seemed to be, overall, in good physical health and physically fit. comparatively to mr. zimmerman who was in the process of losing weight. >> the zimmerman you see there the 300-pound version of george zimmerman is not what he looked like in the altercation. he was 190 and 5'8". the prosecution is now cross-examining the witness root. >> you know, his reference in that statement was addressing his -- clearly addressing his frustration from previous calls

in which the individuals got away. his verbiage chosen may not be the most appropriate but i don't mean because somebody has said that because they mean ill will. >> but the target of his frustration, you understand, was trayvon martin? >> i would have to say that the comment, in my opinion, the comment, that frustrating was being voiced at the fact he has made numerous calls. the fact that -- i mean, the other alternative is to go, wow, thee fellows always get away. i don't know what what his general speech pattern is like in regards how he refers to everybody else. in and of itself, i don't see that variable as being showing ill will. >> let me ask you. you had a conversation. >> not that i recall, no. >> did he call you an --? >> toward me, no, sir. >> no, at all. >> i don't recall if he was

asked specifically about that. >> no, no. in his conversation with you, did he say the word asshole? >> i don't recall if, at some point, it came up during the conversations about that tape, but as far as the context being used to me, he did not call me that. >> all right. and did i understand you say that the most important factor about the safety of any firearm is the responsibility of the user? >> sure. >> so an irresponsible person can be really, really dangerous? >> absolutely. any person that is reckless with their firearm can be dangerous, sure. >> i want to talk for a moment about your connection with this case. you told the jury that you actually reached out to the defense, right? >> correct. >> and tell the jury when you started your consulting company pmt. that is what you're doing now. >> i started doing consulting

work at the -- i want to say it was 2011, 2012 through tactical advantage solutions. in 2013, i started dennis root and associates, which is a private investigations and expert witnesses firm. >> dennis root and associates, you started earlier this year? >> yes, sir. >> you understood when you contacted the defense in this case that this case was getting national, if not worldwide, attention? >> of course. >> and you understood that there would be live coverage of this trial if you were to testify, right? >> yes, sir. >> and assuming those cameras are working, you're on live television right now, right? >> as far as i know, yes, sir. >> in and the name of your company is on live television, right? >> i believe so, yes, sir. >> so that is good for your company. you would agree with that, right? >> i see where you're going. it's good for my company, but

there really wasn't other options as far as approaching the state in the same way. >> didn't you think that you being a witness in this case do your company some good, that is, you would get your name out there? >> is there no question that anybody seeing anything about this case would be aware of the fact it's getting media coverage, but anybody who does their homework about me, knows the fact that i'm dedicated to finding the truth and supporting the truth. when i approach mr. o'mara about it, it's because i knew that the state would be able to gain access to somebody just like me with no issue. if i had approached the state about this and let's say i determined whatever, that it wasn't going to be supportive for the state or it would be, let's say, for just instances, that i found that i wouldn't be supportive, i now could not be in any way of assistance to the defense. however, if i reached out to the defense and i provided them with

the opportunity -- and i found that, well, wait, i can't be of any assistance to you, i have not hindered the case in any way and i could wall away without any problems and affecting in either way. the fact that i gain some kind of media coverage from it isn't my fault because those of us that are dedicated to the truth, those cameras are here. that's not why i'm here. >> seisn't it true you've advertised the fact you are a very witness in this case? >> yes. >> you've tweeted that out, right? >> i haven't tweeted it. >> how did you advertise it? >> when i was put on the case, every attorney that i know knew about it. obviously, in the fields that i go in, the attorneys, just like every other provision, they talk. just this morning, i let -- i texted my friends to let them know that i would be testifying here today. >> in fact, you haven't been paid yet, have you? >> no, sir. >> your green light you may get paid, you may not, is that

right? >> that's correct, sir. >> that is not your norm practice? >> the case that comes through, if you look at my background you know i have done some things for free. i have done some things for some people for $20 an hour and i've gotten paid up to $175 an hour. i really base it on the case that is presented to me. >> right. but didn't you provide me with an invoice sheet or the way that you bill clients? >> for the expert witness, sir? >> right. >> yes, sir. >> that's what you're doing here today, right? >> yes. >> and it's $1500 initially and $125 an hour after that? >> yes. the way it breaks down basically is if i'm hired in as an expert, my general fee schedule is there is a $1,500 deposit. and my hourly rate is $125 an hour. that is for a case prep and review. then on the dates that i testify, either by deposition or i testify in court, my hourly rate is $175 an hour and that includes travel time and wait time.

>> and actually you've never testified before a jury before, have you? >> excluding -- >> in a court like this? >> you mean excludeing grand jurys? >> correct. >> yes, this is the first time i've actually testified before a jury in a criminal case. in an expert capacity. i've testified, obviously, as an officer in a criminal case numerous times. >> yes. you've testified against police officers, right? >> testified against police officers? >> yes, sir. >> i have been presented with cases that i found that the officer was wrong, yes, sir. >> i mean, you've testified to that? >> that went through deposition. >> correct. >> not through trial. >> i mean under oath. >> oh, yes, sir. >> all right. but you've never testified in a case like this where one person -- i mean in court -- where one person shoots another and the shooter is claiming self-defense? >> no. this is the first time i've ever was presented with something like this.

>> and you, yourself, have never been involved in a police shooting, have you? >> i'm fortunate enough that, no, i've never had to shoot anyone. >> in fact, you've never had to discharge a firearm in the course of your career, have you? i mean, other than at a range? >> right. other than training sessions, scenario traced and i've never had to discharge my firearm in a shooting. >> you've never had to use any other deadly type of force, have you? >> explain deadly force. the things i've had to do to people, i've caused injuries and things like that. deadly force is not about killing anybody it's about serious bodily injury and death. >> but you've never caused a death during the course of your career, have you? >> no. >> all right. the first time you got information in this case would have been april of this year? a couple of months ago? >> do you mean actual case stuff? >> yes. >> oh, yes, sir. >> and one of the things you did

was you interviewed the defendant? >> i did have a conversation with him, yes, sir. >> the purpose was to get a firsthand account of what he remembers? >> yes, sir. >> you would agree with me would you not that as a person charged with murder, woe have a motivate to fit the facts his way? >> sure. if somebody was guilty they wanted to lie, you wouldn't lie to get yourself into trouble. >> you listened to the nonemergency call. i believe you testified to that. right? >> mr. zimmerman's? >> yes. >> yes. >> you heard him describe trayvon martin in a couple of terms we have already talked about, but also real suspicious, right? >> yes. >> and up to no good. >> yes. >> you remember that? you remember him telling the dispatcher he has his hands in his waistband? >> i do recall that, yes. >> he told the dispatcher he has got something in his hands, right?

>> i believe he indicated that he thought he might have something. he wasn't sure. i don't believe he actually said he has something in his hands. >> but you didn't ask the defendant, after making those observations, if he was concerned when he got out of his car? >> well, sir, just to proffer it, you say i didn't ask him anything. i don't think you were there is what i'm trying to say. >> did you ask him that specific question? are you concerned for your safety when you got out of the car? >> no. >> we are listening to the prosecution cross-examine dennis root here. this is a defense witness that the prosecution is now taking the task over exactly how expert he really is. this being the first time that he has ever appeared in a jury trial. msnbc legal analyst and laisa bedroom and paul henderson is with us. this is the first time the witness has ever been involved in a jury trial and first time he has ever been considered to be an expert. >> he has testified as an expert before a number of grand jurys

and i guess always a first time. this is the way you cross-examine expert witnesses. they are paid to be there. the jury understands that 37 they are educated professionals and you can lay into them and what the prosecution should have been doing and this should have been doing it yesterday with dr. di maio yesterday and they are doing it with this witness today. >> when we hear about the physicality of trayvon martin who was freshly 17 years old, 5'11" and 158 pounds and that time george zimmerman 5'8" and over 190 pounds. zimmerman fit and in shape was a soft wimp is portrayed here and trayvon is the more skilled, younger teen in the altercation that happened? >> yeah, they are trying to paint that picture. but at the end of the day, i think the prosecution is going to remind everybody that zimmerman was the one that had the gun. zimmerman was the one that may

have initiated this confrontation in the first place because trayvon martin was running away, was leaving, moving around, whatever. so now there is all of this talk about the fight. but at the end of the day, i think the jury is going to feel like they don't really know what happened with the fight. i think both sides have done a really good job of muddying the waters up to make it clear that there are different perspectives as to what happened but at the end of day, we know ultimately that zimmerman used the gun that he had and pulled it out and shot trayvon martin. i think all of this testimony is just dirtying the waters up about what could have happened and it's not very clear either way. >> the only theory that truly matters is the prosecution's theory for the jury to believe. we are going to be back with much more after this after a quick break. re management starts hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use

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i want to get you back inside the george zimmerman trial. on the stand is dennis root being cross-examined by the prosecution. >> the defendant did not describe for you from what direction he claimed that trayvon martin approached him? >> i don't -- as far as a direction that would have been my failure not to ask. he said he was approached and i didn't specifically ask do you mean by direction north, south, east, west, that would have been my failure not to ask that specific question. >> i'm not talking about g geography. i'm talking about front, back, side. >> i got the impression he approached him from the front. during our conversation, it was pretty clear he approached him from the front. >> you didn't ask the defendant

what hand trayvon martin used to punch him, right? >> no, sir. >> you didn't ask him how long it was between the time he got punched as he claims and the time he went to the ground? >> i didn't ask him for specific times. again, i reference back to what i already said that when i interview somebody for force -- review a force of event, time is so fluid. saying was it five seconds or ten seconds, is there a period of time that took place. it's fluid, it's movement. it's evolving. so the presumption that once it begins, their except of time becomes less relevant, so i don't lock anyone, anyone into a specific time line in that regard. >> i know. but the time line is important to you, right? >> the overall time line, yes, sir. >> okay. the defendant didn't describe for you how it was they moved from where he claimed the confrontation started to where they ended up?

>> no. there was no explanation as far as how they transitioned from that point. >> that fact doesn't speak to you about the level of the confrontation? >> well, understanding the dynamics of a combat event or a fight, you know, there's a lot of things that spoke to me what he said and the other witnesses said in this case and when you evaluate it and look at it and how did you get from here to here, how did you end up on your back? why weren't you on top? the evolution of the event itself and the imperative part is when the confrontation began and when it intensified. where they transitioned, being in combat events myself and being in fights and knowing they start here and end up over here, how did you get here? they were tough and they were strugg struggling. >> i apologize. we were involved in this person-to-person conflict, how they transitioned from one spot to the other spot, giving there was no major event that took place at that point, i didn't try to narrow him down on a time for that. >> you didn't ask him not this time.

you didn't ask him how they got there? what would happen in between? >> the fight starrted and ended up here. i didn't inquire how he got from this point to this poip. >> as to whether or not they were rolling over there or whether or not they were fighting standing up over there to get over there, right? >> right. i would presume based on the physical evidence, i wouldn't presume they were rolling over there, but whatever the struggle took place, i didn't personally inquire about that, no, sir. >> all right. you were asked by the defense counsel if you took into account the placement of the defendant. i think a key fob or a flashlight on it? >> yes, sir. >> isn't it true you didn't ask the defendant about his losing personal property throughout this event where and when he lost things? >> that, i don't recall. i can't say honestly. i don't recall. i don't think i did. >> you didn't ask him how he

lost his keys or a little flashlight, did you? >> no. because as far as that point with the way you phrase it like that, i don't know what you're asking me there. i didn't how you lost your keys. i didn't ask him how he lost his keys. >> the keys were dropped, right? >> i saw the photograph in evidence, also there was a picture with that item right there right by the sidewalk on the grass. >> did you ask him how he lost this? for the record, it's state's 145. >> no, sir. >> okay. this, by the way, would that be an impact weapon? >> may i hold it? >> sure. >> i need to see what it's made out of and how much it weighs. anything can be an impact weapon. >> sure. >> take a quick break. we are back after this. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter... because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them

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on the stand is in the zimmerman trial is dennis root. he is being questioned about the injuries of george zimmerman. >> well, i didn't need to ask about the blood getting his nhis eyes because the time the photographs were taken they were fresh and no blood on his and as far as mouth, i didn't ask him him. >> you didn't ask the defendant whether he tried to cover his face while this was going on, did you? >> no. >> you didn't ask the defendant whether or not he tried to strike trayvon martin? >> no. again, i didn't spend a lot of time asking him a lot of things. >> the defendant never told you, did he you, what he was doing with his hands once this was going on? >> no, sir. i don't recall him saying anything. >> you talked about vantage

point. >> yes, sir. >> you'd agree with me that out of the all the people you heard from, either talked to or had written statements or audio statements, the person with the best vantage point would have been the defendant, right? >> of course. he was there through the entire thing and he was an active participant. >> you would agree that if trayvon martin had lived, his vantage point would be important too? >> sure. absolutely. >> the defendant told you in his statement that trayvon martin was straddling him, right? >> yes, sir. >> and you understood that from the context of your conversation that trayvon martin was over the defendant's belly button, right? >> he was over his waist area. >> well, didn't you say previously over his belly button?

>> during our conversation that we had in deposition and i was actually not provided with a transcript so i'm just going off memory here, i believe we discussed it and we identified it could be the waist. i mentioned that a high mount, it can be over the waist, the belly button area, but we also discussed that i mentioned it could be down around the waist, upper thigh area. >> would it refresh your recollection to see your deposition and refresh yourself on what term you used? >> sure. >> counsel, page 53. >> just object to the attempt of impeachment. >> he is having him review it first. >> the question was answered. >> judge? >> he is entitled to show him the deposition. >> if he suggested he can't answer the question, he doesn't remember it, he answer the defendant. >> if the answer is different. >> judge, i'm entitled to refresh his recollection.

>> okay. could you please state the date and time of the deposition? >> yes, ma'am. mr. root, you recall it was a week ago saturday, right? >> yes. >> saturday, in the morning? >> yes. >> we all appeared on a conference call? >> yes, sir. >> and you were under oath at that time? >> i was. >> counsel, page 53, lines 10 through 16. if i may roach. >> y-- if i may approach. >> you may approach. >> review that highlighted portion and see if that reflects your memory as to your understanding of why trayvon martin was specifically straddled on the defendant. >> yes, sir. >> okay. where was it? >> in the area of his belly button. >> very good. >> not directly on it. >> well, by area of belly button, you mean here? >> i object. that he needs to read the entire

question. >> you can do that on your redirect. >> okay. >> by area of belly button, do you mean here? >> if that is where your naval is, yes, sir. the area is it's either going to be below that. it's going to be in the area. i wasn't try to say it was on his belly button. >> you recognize this as being a human type figure? right? >> yes, sir. >> okay. it's actually got a belly button, right? >> it sure does. >> does it appear to be anatomically correct? >> for the belly button, right. >> as the defendant described it to you, is this the way he described it in the area of his belly button? >> well, what is really important right now, sir, number one, you've got your knees up pretty high on his waist. if you want to slide down a little bit more so you're in the area. there you go. have a squat. i can't see your crotch, but in the area of his belly button, right. >> here is his belly button. am i in the area? >> yes. >> by the way, did you have the defendant do this?

>> no, sir. >> when you talked to him, you didn't have him do that? >> no, sir. >> if this person, this mannequin was carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now in relation to me? >> would be at your left inner thigh. >> right here, right? >> yes. if he was right-handed, it would be at your left inner thigh, yes. >> underneath my leg? >> yes. inside your leg. >> okay. were you aware that the defendant described to his best friend that when the defendant slid down, that trayvon martin was up around his armpits? were you aware of that? >> no. i've not heard that, no, sir. >> where would the gun be now? >> now, the gun would be behind your left leg. >> okay.

the defendant did tell you, though, as well that at some point, he slid down further between trayvon martin's legs? >> yes. he can indicate that he was sliding down and i believe that is how the jacket came out exposing the firearm. >> if i can have just a moment? >> yes. >> you didn't ask the defendant how he was able to get his firearm, did you? >> no, sir. he explained that he reached down and grabbed it. >> but he also explained that

trayvon martin was in the area of his belly button, right? >> yes. at one point. >> right. >> the whole thing is fluid. it wasn't like he got in one spot and didn't oop move. >> in the first he was in the area of his belly button and then he slid down. that happened after, right? >> yes. >> then he said that is when he grabbed his gun? >> yes. after he had slid down, the jacket came up. you're implying that trayvon didn't move so that it wouldn't be accessible, but we have to remember in a dynamic event it's not just one person doing drst movements, so we have to take into account both sides of the equation as it's interacting. >> would the defendant tell you that trayvon martin slid down? he didn't do that, did he? >> no, sir. >> you were asked if you reviewed the medical examiner's report. >> yes, sir. >> you did. >> yes, sir. >> do you remember the

trajectory of the bullet being referenced in there at being at 90 degrees? >> yes, sir. and i believe front to back. >> right. wouldn't that be consistent with trayvon martin getting off of george zimmerman and george zimmerman raising the gun and firing it? >> well, when you talk about angles of anything, sir, it can be consistent with any kind of movement. we could say it could happen that way, it could happen another way. there are various ways that you could have it happen. and, you know, you weren't there, i wasn't there. so the information that we have is what mr. -- >> from the defendant, right? >> that's correct, sir. >> may i approach -- >> yes, you may. >> i mean, your information came enter the defendant? >> not all of it, sir. your indication is that the only person i spoke with is the defendant and that not accurate. >> i'm talking the time the shot was fired. >> the time the shot was fired, the information i culminated on that is a culmination of

anything. the only person to provide any insight at that very second that was there was mr. zimmerman. >> okay. and he said he was in the waist area and the defendant may have -- or trayvon martin may have slid down. and my question to you is would it be consistent the 90 degrees, if trayvon martin had been backing up and the defendant raised his gun and shot at 90 degrees? >> with you at that angle? 90 degrees to what, sir? when you talk about 90 degrees, we are talking about this degree? >> right, right. >> if it's front to back 90 degrees and you're standing there and holding a gun up already you're 45 degrees where you are because he is laying flat on the ground. >> and straight up. >> excuse me. one at a time. >> i apologize. if trayvon martin is backing up, could not the defendant have shot him at a 90-degree angle? >> if trayvon martin is backing up? >> correct. >> and you're saying that mr. zimmerman is laying on his back and he brings the gun to bear on trayvon he is backing up and suddenly that bullet goes in

front-to-back? >> could he shoot at a 90-degree angle i'm asking. >> i think i'm getting really lost on -- this 90-ye thing is really -- i don't want to misinform the jury with my answer. >> 90 degrees is what you read in the medical examiner's report, right? >> that's correct. my interpretation was 90 degrees front-to-back for lack of a -- i'm not a in competitmedical ex. my interpretation provided it would give it -- for lack of layman's term like a level entry, not an angled entry. >> correct. >> so as this event is transitioning, and you're coming back, if this comes back, then we maintain that. >> right. >> it's a struggle that is forward and you're 90-degree reference i want to be clear i'm not trying to sail the manner you're demonstrating with him raising his gun up and you sitting back, i don't know how you could get a 90-degree entry if you're sitting straight back like this. >> i'm not sitting straight

back. i'm just -- >> from my perspective all i'm trying to say it looks like you're more vertically upright and you two of you form a 90 and if the two of you form a 90 where you're straight up and he brings the gun to bear based on the dynamics of his arm, there would be a way for it to go straight in. there has to be mutual movement to keep them within line. >> right. as if the defendant started to sit up and trayvon martin was getting up, are you saying there couldn't be a 90-degree angle? >> am i saying there konts be a 90-degree angle? >> right. >> with him in half up position and you trying to get up? >> right. >> if the bodies come in line -- as long as -- from my understanding to maintain the entry, we are going to have to maintain some relativity between the two persons, right? >> right. item so the relative i can say say if i'm laying back and you're more forward i can get a 90-degree entry. if we are both coming up you're asking me to bring up could it happen that way? the answer is absolutely yes.

if he segment getting unand he is getting up together, sure. no way i could say no you couldn't have two people maintaining that alignment and maintaining entry. >> you also were provided the firearms report and you learned it was a contact wound with the clothing that trayvon martin had on? >> yes, sir, the clothing. >> it wasn't a contact wound with his chest? >> correct. >> that sksent with trayvon martin leaning over when he got hot? >> yes, sir, sure. >> you were asked -- or you actually spoke a little bit about the light, right? >> yes, sir. >> did you -- you actually went to the scene for the purpose of getting an idea of the light, right? >> yes, sir.

>> but you didn't get an idea of the light, did you? >> no. i failed to go take into account the change in season, so when i got there, it was still daylight or dusk area. >> and when was that? >> off the top of my head, i can't remember the exact day, sir. i think i might have told new deposition, but i can't remember. >> can you ballpark it? was it in july? >> july? no. >> was it in june? >> maybe early june. i don't remember the exact day in which i attempted that. >> you went to the scene to get an idea of the light? >> yes. >> and the sun had not yet gone down? >> correct. it was not completely set. >> so you didn't wait until it had set? >> no, sir. >> and you didn't go back? >> no. >> when it was dark some other day? >> no.

>> the defendant told you that trayvon martin reached across his body to try to get the gun? >> he mentioned that, yes, sir. >> but he never told thaw trayvon martin actually touched the gun? >> no, i don't believe he said he touched the gun. he felt him moving forward the gun gun. he perceived he was moving forward the gun. >> were you aware that the defendant told his best friend that trayvon martin actually touched the gun, grabbed it? >> it's possible he said that. >> i mean, you don't -- >> i don't think it would affect -- i mean, whether you're reaching for it or grabbing it. >> mark osterman, does that name sound familiar? >> yes. >> did you review his testimony or his statement, pretrial statements? >> i reviewed his statements, but i focused on the people that actually had witness accounts.

my job as an expert is to look at the event, not hearsay take comes from somebody else that they are saying. number one, dealing with man demand, i have always got a concern that i haven't met too many men whose egos is don't enter into it when they are having a conversation with somebody. >> again, we are watching the cross-examination from the prosecution to this expert witness dennis root who is put on by the defense as a safety and law enforcement expert. we saw prosecution attorney guy there on the floor with the dummy executing the exhibit of the 90-degree angle of how it would have been physically impossible or possible for trayvon martin to see george glimm zimmerman's gun during that fight. we will be back with much more after the break. served it up in the heart of peach country. it's a fresh-over. we want you to eat some peaches and tell us what you think. they're really juicy. it must have just come from the farm. this right here is ideal for me. walmart works directly

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that witness is a guy by the name of dennis root who is safety and law enforcement expert. our expert msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom has been watching this. we saw john guy for the prosecution demonstrate the angle necessary for trayvon martin being on top and george zimmerman on the ground. this 90-degree angle and the physical possibility or impossibility of how zimmerman would be able to get his gun. one thing and i think you were struggling with this too that john guy didn't demonstrate the fact that george zimmerman has said his gun was behind him, not in front of him. >> in the police re-enactment video george zimmerman was positioned behind him with his gun in the holster. that is a good point for john guy to make. i like the demonstration. i like him on top of the mannequin and showing it. a picture is worth a thousand words. when you actually see it, you think how is that possible? the expert, though, has said, look, a fight is dynamic, it's a

constantly moving situation. and i think that is true as well. so something a little bit for both sides. >> is he demonstrating that the 90-degree angle is more believe with trayvon martin disengaging from some kind of altercation and the gun being brandished? >> that is the argument that perhaps trayvon martin was pulling away and george zimmerman may have been pulling on his shirt and may explain the gap between the shirt and the bullet weaned heard about yesterday. a big blunder on this expert on cross-examination when he said he thought the incident may have happened in early june and he went around that time and the sun was not completely set so he thought the light conditions were reasonably good. number witnesses have testified it was very dark and we know this incident happened in february in the winter where it's much darker at 7:30. >> we are go back in and listen to the prosecution asking questions of this defense witness dennis root. >> you're asking me if somebody

saw? if i am beating the crud out of you and i know you suddenly have a gun would i expect me to be screaming for help? if you said if i was trayvon martin if in that situation wen anne we take it to the situation where i'm theoor and i'm on you and suddenly i see you have a gun, my first instinct as the aggressor is not going to be to scream for help. my first instinct as the aggr s aggressor if i'm the agrosser is go for the weapon and help me continue my graegs and not being implemented to prevent me to stop me. >> my question is it would be unusual for pattern who saw somebody they were in combat with a firearm would it be unusual for that person to yell for help in your experience? >> i want to make sure i'm clear because you just said would it be unusual for a person involved in a combat situation to suddenly see a gun and scream for help. is that the question that -- i want to make sure i'm very clear

because i want to plis interpret this. i want to be careful in what i say with what you're asking. >> i'm trying to make it more simple. if a person sees a firearm, would it be unusual for them to yell for help? >> if an average individual saw a gun and it was pointed at them, i would say absolutely not. anybody looking down the barrel of a firearm if you're able to vocalize something would probably yell for help. if you're looking down the barrel of a gun, you would hope, i hope if you're looking down the barrel of a gun, you would be in fear for your life. >> all right. back to the options. we kind of got away from that. there are other options that george zimmerman could have used to get out of that situation, right? >> based on my understanding of his physical skills and things, he wasn't physically trained. you know, you're asking of options. we go back to what we talk about for subject facts. variables involved in an individual in the event. what is your background training and experience? you know, one of the training instructors cases i have is in on 1 one-on-one control tactics.

that is ground fighting option. if i have no background or training to lead me down those baths is there nothing else so i'm limited on options. there are always options in every force event. it's just a matter of what you, as an individual, see as being your options. >> right. but the defendant didn't use any other options, did he, other than pulling out the gun? >> well, i mean if we go down the path he was vocalizing he did scream for help. there were other options. he ouble continued to try to resist. he did as they refer to as the shrimping technique trying to get and move around. you know, as far as drawing a conclusion, i don't know what else he could have done based on his abilities, because not to be offensive to mr. zimmerman, who doesn't seem to have any. >> you're not suggesting that the defendant was just laying there getting hit? >> absolutely not. >> he would have been defending himself?

>> i am presume at a minimum he would be struggling at some form of fashion to create some kind of gap or distance. instinctually that seems like it would just be a normal thing. >> did you say there is a verbal component to the use of force? >> absolutely. >> like telling someone who you are? >> well, the verbal component is any time you interact with people, you can escalate or deescalate an issue based on communication. if i, you know -- the levels when we speak about law enforcement, you have presence. they offer different levels of existence. for us, it would be, you know, you tell them stand over here. no, i'm not doing that. that is verbal resistance. that is a verbal communication. the officer's response can be verbal which would be you're under arrest, come stand over here, blah, blah. in the individual realm, verbalization can be screaming for help and tell a person, no,

stop, whatever that may be. >> we continue to watch the cross-examination of dennis root. we take a quick break and back after this. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home. so beautiful. avo: more travel. more options. more personal.

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we continue with the cross examination from the prosecution of the expert witness for the defense, dennis root. >> activities, cooldowns and stretching again. so i probably didn't ask that one because the general guidance on that for just physical technique type classes seems to be the norm. >> and you talked a little bit about trayvon martin. you wanted to know about his physical ability, right? >> i would have loved to have known totally about it, sir. >> but i believe your words are he was physically active. >> that was my understanding, yes, sir. >> because you had information that in middle school he played football? >> again, and i believe i said it, you know, before this case began there was information in the media. >> your honor, may we approach for a moment?

>> yes. >> msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom is with us, as well as paul henderson. lisa, let me get to you, trying to establish the physicality, the team trayvon martin, the 29-year-old george zimmerman. 300 pounds. but at the time he was one year in training. he was carrying a concealed weapon. had dreams of being a police officer and was 5'8", 190 pounds. why is it so important that they're trying to paint this picture that he was a fit wimp? >> you know, george zimmerman was smaller in height but he definitely weighed more than trayvon martin. as you say, we know he had some mma training. all the gym owners said he wasn't particularly good at it. this expert overstepped where he started talking about trayvon martin's physical fitness which we don't know anything about. we know his height and his

weight and that's about it. anything else he knows about trayvon martin he heard in the media. he just mentioned that. that led to the side bar because he's not supposed to be basing his opinion on things you hear in the media. sometimes the media gets things wrong and an expert witness is supposed to base his opinion only on what comes into evidence. >> how do you think that the prosecution's been doing at going ahead and poking some holes in this expert witness for the defense? >> i think they're doing a really good job of being very methodic methodical, of pointing out all of the inconsistencies and pointing out all of the gaps of this expert that they have on the stand. i love the fact that he pointed out that that witness didn't pay attention to some of their testimony that they had presented earlier. the fact that he hadn't reviewed the testimony of jenteal and what she saw and heard in that conversation with trayvon is really important. the fact that he was able to demonstrate and show his version, the prosecutor i'm

talking about now, when he was down on the floor with the dummy there was really, i think, interesting and it's going to limit the testimony from the stabbed. >> we're outside the courthouse in sanford. craig, i know that you're able to report that the jury was very interested in how they used that dummy in the demonstration on the floor. >> yeah. you know, one of the things that we've been doing down here is trying to keep a close eye on the jury and their reaction to certain witnesses, their reaction to certain parts of the testimony as well and at one point when john gott, attorney for the state was down on the floor demonstrating with the dummy, how he would be, how he could be that george zimmerman fired the shot at trayvon martin. he was where witnesses are saying he was and where george zimmerman -- the position of george zimmerman. jurors in the back row all stood up at that point to watch this

particular demonstration so they were engaged. >> craig mullen, thank you so much. lisa bloom, thank you so much. thanks so much. that will wrap things up for me. now with alex wagner is coming your way next with more continuing coverage of the george zimmerman trial. >> i'm sure we covered that. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. we've been bringing people together. today, we'd like people to come together on something that concerns all of us. obesity. and as the nation's leading beverage company,

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root testified about the physical abilities of both zimmerman and martin saying that martin appeared to be in good physical health compared to zimmerman who was in the process of losing weight. root also portrayed zimmerman as poorly equipped for a fight based on discussions with a trainer at zimmerman's gym. >> what information were you able to glean concerning mr. zimmerman's physical prowess or ability? >> outside of defenses, he didn't have any. mr. zimmerman was described as being a very nice person but not the fighter. >> in the prosecution's cross examination, attorney john guy used a dummy to reenact the events that may have led to the fatal gun shot, including the positioning of the firearm during the fight. >> if this person, this mannequin, were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now in relation to me? >> would be at your left inner thigh. >> rig